Was Shaq a good defender?

I been watching the NBA since the 90s, Shaq was never mentioned as a good defender. There was a running joke that Shaq doesn't care about defense and he just wants to dominate on the offensive end.

In his career he was only on the 2nd team all-defensive 3 times in his peak from 2000-2002. Never an all defensive with the Magic in his younger days, or after the Lakers.

I been seeing a lot of Shaq vs Jokic argument that Shaq was a much better defender, I am just wondering when did that narrative of Shaq being a good defender started. To be clear, I still have Shaq over Jokic all time.